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Re: Formula 1 Grand Prix #2

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Tijny

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Re: Formula 1 Grand Prix #2

PostTue Sep 11, 2018 12:00 pm

I don't mean to show off or anything, but I'll do it anyway:

https://youtu.be/g-jNzgkpi3U
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Mike Nike

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Re: Formula 1 Grand Prix #2

PostTue Sep 11, 2018 1:42 pm

Oompa wrote:You brake tested (or unthrottled) T coming out of the hairpin.


Hmm...this sounds like you think this is forbidden. Or allowed, but kinda dirty.
So, just in case you are not kidding: I thought and still think it is allowed to slow down your car in curves to block that way and therefore practiced it on LVP5. Please correct me, if I'm wrong, though!
In lap 43: if T sees me closing the door on the inside by going slower (breaking (longer/again) or lifting), he can use this chance and try to overtake on the outside before I have the chance to block this door as well as long as his car is not located side by side with me in a way that I have to let him space. I have to think of an overtake by Badeend there vs me, where he did not let me space on the outside.
It's sometimes a bit of a guessing game in a split of a second there. But usually, I can still close the outside door as well, even if I react a bit late. Of course, not having to defend at all and just winning by pace/speed would be the golden way. But the position defending "game" is quite interesting and exciting nonetheless and in the end, there is the last early pit strategy that helps to overtake, if there is a driver in front of you who seems tough to be overtaken.
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Tijny

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Re: Formula 1 Grand Prix #2

PostTue Sep 11, 2018 2:30 pm

Well, I personally think being deliberately late on the throttle with the intention to hold up the car behind is questionable at best and quite lame at worst. :) In any case it's not a move I would choose to do.
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Mike Nike

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Re: Formula 1 Grand Prix #2

PostTue Sep 11, 2018 4:21 pm

Tried to search a video example, but I only found these words from 4:39-4:48 here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnnR6ubhrHg
Closing the door on the inside in a way to force the car behind to brake or steer to avoid a crash, seemed to be a valid defending move in curves to me, so far. In the past, I was regretting a lot that I did not defend as "rough" (but fair, as far as I thought) as I could have.
So, Whip: you prefer to forbid this move?
Either way: if Tijny is not using it in any case, I won't try to use it either. But I do not see it as dark as Tijny, actually. But yeah, it feels a bit lame, because it makes overtaking a lot harder. Especially if you are stuck behind a slower car. But remember Alonso defending vs Schumacher for...10 laps or so? Some people like that kind of challenge and car positioning fights.

Which reminds me to a similar fair, but rough defending move, which might look like blocking in some people's eyes:
Imagine the long straight in Flakemoore after curve 2: the car behind you (in this case me, Mike) is getting closer, drafting...and Tijny in front is driving in the middle of the road. He still has his right to choose a defending line and may steer right to the inside or move left to the outside, if I saw it right (yeah, it was actually a real situation). But as soon as I am very close and short before getting as close as ~1.1-1.3 car lengths, he steers into the direction I was trying to overtake. But in the race, he did not do it. But let's imagine he did it. And if I am not reacting fast by driving faster to the right or switching fast to the left, I will bump into him and the collision will be my fault, despite his defending move may have looked like a lame rough block or not.
According to the TS F1 rules from 2011 or so this move was fine, I think. Therefore, when I was the overtaking car, I have sometimes tried to "bluff" steer into the direction I wanted the car in front to defend, so it can't defend on the better defending line anymore. Example: the long straight after turn 1 in the track where dede overtook me in the very last curve in the very last lap with his very slight sidebump into me (and where REIROM kamikaze'd me at some point of the race, I think). I forgot the trackname...
Anyway: this is also a move, T might not choose to do. I can imagine, because he skipped doing it in a couple of situations, where he could have easily used it, so far. So: if we or even if just Tijny does not like that move either, I will take it out of my "repertoire" as well and will try to not use it anymore. Just like the "delayed corner exit" defending move.
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Tijny

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Re: Formula 1 Grand Prix #2

PostTue Sep 11, 2018 4:49 pm

Mike Nike wrote:Tried to search a video example, but I only found these words from 4:39-4:48 here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnnR6ubhrHg
Closing the door on the inside in a way to force the car behind to brake or steer to avoid a crash, seemed to be a valid defending move in curves to me, so far. In the past, I was regretting a lot that I did not defend as "rough" (but fair, as far as I thought) as I could have.

It's not quite the same as in real life, though. Because of network delay and client prediction and all that, I have to trust that you start accelerating at a reasonable time point. If I have to wait for your car to start accelerating on my screen, with my own reaction time factored in, that could be well over 200 ms that I'd be too late on the throttle, which is enough to put me miles behind anyway. There's also the fact that you really didn't need that move to stay ahead last sunday - even if I had exited the turn close to you, the following straight would not be long enough to do anything and the dirty air in the next fast chicane combined with my worn tyres would've been sufficient to create a massive gap. ;)

The closing the door on a straight move that you describe, I'm probably more OK with, but only if the distance between both cars is big enough to give the oncoming driver time to react - for the same reasons as I mentioned earlier in this post.
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Mike Nike

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Re: Formula 1 Grand Prix #2

PostWed Sep 12, 2018 3:48 pm

Tijny wrote:There's also the fact that you really didn't need that move to stay ahead


I didn't even think about that. In my head, at this point, the move I was planning to do, is valid/fair. And likely the most effective. I did not know you were thinking differently about its fairness/morality or how you may call it. The "f major FC" reaction in a practice race earlier made me worry for a moment though, shortly after I made a blocky move.

Anyway, in case a newcomer is wondering: some people might still know I'm more of a fair guy and used to be rather too gentlemanlike in the past, which gave me a disadvantage in some racing situations here and there compared to those who chose a rather rough racing style.

"Mike, you are so stereotype! You germans make rules for everything." or so a buddy once told me. ^^
Maybe guilty in that case :D


@Whippe & others? Any arguments pro/contra the 2 earlier mentioned moves?

1) blocky car positioning in curves as defending move:
+ it's challenging for the defending car
+ it's challenging for the (re-)overtaking car
+ it's fun for people who love to fight for positions
- it causes more bumps, which causes more damage & pushes offroad (additional damage to the tyres)
- it might cause more time loss for the cars involved = fewer chances to compete with other drivers in front; and they might cause (more) traffic for drivers in the back
- in average it might be the case that the car in front is the one with a slower pace, so this driver might feel a bit lame when keeping the position; accordingly, the car behind feels nerved because he can't pass so easily, although his pace is way faster

2) adjustive 1st steering on a straight according to the steering of an overtaking car, which often results in a block, if not predicted or reacted fast by the overtaking car
+ maybe more fun for people who like position fights
- different ping makes it harder to react for/vs some players
- the ping alone makes the overtaking car see the reaction later as in reality
- more bumps -> more damage
- tougher to overtake -> more frustration for the (likely faster) car behind
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Tijny

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Re: Formula 1 Grand Prix #2

PostWed Sep 12, 2018 5:26 pm

(not sure if you were just asking others to reply, or also me)

Mike Nike wrote:1) blocky car positioning in curves as defending move:
+ it's challenging for the defending car
+ it's challenging for the (re-)overtaking car
+ it's fun for people who love to fight for positions

To me, none of these really apply, even though I do like fighting for positions. I mainly see it as a cheap trick to bait the person behind into either colliding with you, or, if they react quickly enough, slamming the brakes on corner exit to prevent said collision. I mean sure, it's a challenging move to counter, but not in a good way I feel because in the vast majority of cases there's absolutely nothing you can do that's effective against it. I wouldn't go as far as saying it should be forbidden though - I consider it a somewhat lame but legal move, and I would've kept quiet about it had Oompa not brought it up.

Still, I do understand where you're coming from: like yourself I have probably been driving too fairly this season and the last as well, and in that light it's only good that you're looking for the limits now and that we learn each other's points of view regarding different situations. :)
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Whiplash

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Re: Formula 1 Grand Prix #2

PostThu Sep 13, 2018 12:50 pm

I would say the same as T. You can still make nasty attacking/deffending moves even if you avoid these tricks. For example, watch Oompa's overtaking on Flakemoore against Lorenzo and me. It feels really nasty and unfair, but you can't practically find nothing to complain about. :wink:
Basically, both drivers should act in a predictive way to each other - which won't make a necessarily predictive (read: boring) result.
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Mike Nike

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Re: Formula 1 Grand Prix #2

PostThu Sep 13, 2018 10:19 pm

Whiplash wrote:watch Oompa's overtaking on Flakemoore against Lorenzo and me. It feels really nasty and unfair, but you can't practically find nothing to complain about


Oompa vs Whip overtake @thin inside @start straight seemed fair. Amazing 0 pixel difference from wheel to wheel there, by the way. :D

But vs Lorenzo I took screenshots of a replay cut to go into a more detailed look.
I currently see 3 different ways of how different tournament rules could allow racers' driving lines there. Which one we actually do have or want, are questions that I can't really answer right now. :S

http://mikenike.bplaced.net/public/ts/c ... taking.png

1) Oompa is allowed to delay steer right into the right-curve (a slow blocky inside position defending way; basically not making a steering movement correction into Lorenzo's car while still not driving backwards mathematically seen) -> Lorenzo drove into Oompa -> Lorenzo's fault
2) Oompa must right-steer as soon as possible, but may still take a fast line and has to let Lorenzo 1 car width space on the outside exit of the curve (kinda what happened) -> collision would still be Lorenzo's fault here (although I gotta add: I'm not sure if Oompa was about to reduce Lorenzo's space to less than 1 car widths short after the start of the upcoming slight left-curve)
3) Oompa may only drive within the space along the road direction according to his "percentage of the road" he covered at the beginning of the curve while being side by side with Lorenzo -> collision would be Oompa's fault here

At Ziggy lap 1 I was actually thinking about "3)" in lap 1 when trying to keep Jurgen at the inside and force him into a very low turning speed for the next curve if he does not want to bump into my side. The curve followed by the straight where Jurgen bumped into my side.
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Whiplash

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Re: Formula 1 Grand Prix #2

PostSun Sep 16, 2018 5:33 pm

Ok, guys, the competition is over. Congrats to T for a great performance and thanks to everyone for participating.
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power79

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Re: Formula 1 Grand Prix #2

PostMon Sep 17, 2018 1:24 am

Race Stats:
Race Stats(4K_Wh_Circly_v2)

Damage Report:
Damage Report(4K_Wh_Circly_v2)

Overtake list:
Overtake List(4K_Wh_Circly_v2)

Blue Flags:
Blue Flags(4K_Wh_Circly_v2)

Overtaking stats went weird most likely because of loops on the track. Those things aren't natural, man!
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Oompa

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Re: Formula 1 Grand Prix #2

PostMon Sep 17, 2018 5:20 am

The race went well. I was able to dictate the pace until I could no more. That 'not could' accounts for most of the race. I think I led most laps, but as T homed in, I couldn't drive anymore, and I saw his lines I couldn't drive myself, and in the end I went off a couple of times and was easy prey. Some turns T and Mike chronically seem to overshoot and in many turns it seems I brake really early. Maybe my difference between slowing down and accelerating again is too big, but I guess I'm just not fast enough on a large scale. I mean, why analyze when you can get a tow on the last straight with Mike coming after you. Thanks, Magnam! It was good to see Mike Nike's spirit being broken ;) Now only the rest remains. Maybe I should have fought harder, maybe T was aware of this and waited until I screwed up. Thanks for the comment XXX, spuit elf met je eiland, I can take you anytime.

Thanks everybody! If not for all of you Reirom would still be here XD
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Tijny

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Re: Formula 1 Grand Prix #2

PostMon Sep 17, 2018 5:30 am

Fun race that was, partly thanks to me forgetting to set my startfuel. Well bloody done, me.
With that 11% less fuel, Oompa was about as fast as myself, and very consistent as well, making for a very challenging race for both of us. And yes, with 3-4 laps to go I was really scared that I couldn't catch you anymore. Like, deathly afraid. Still, good fight!

Meanwhile, Mike heard that I forgot my startfuel on Discord and decided to drop back a few places to make things interesting, which was nice of him, but he basically gave away a relatively easy victory by doing so, which I'm kind of conflicted about. A bit of a shame he crashed in the (extremely dangerous) pitlane, or we could've had a fun 3-way battle in the final few laps.
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Oompa

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Re: Formula 1 Grand Prix #2

PostMon Sep 17, 2018 7:17 am

:)

Oh, the Reirom comment was actually kind of dualistic and also meant as a general insult to the world. I do miss Reirom.
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Mike Nike

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Re: Formula 1 Grand Prix #2

PostThu Sep 20, 2018 12:46 am

T summed it up pretty well, again!

Oompa wrote:Thanks, Magnam! It was good to see Mike Nike's spirit being broken ;)


I don't really know what that is about. But I had a nice challenge in the race, even after the pit crash.

Would have been nice to see how tight it would have been, if I wouldn't have run out of fuel in the last straight in the last lap.

Didn't know if I would be awake for the race - I luckily was, but had a bit of a practice lack. But even this does not explain that I drove some curves very bad all the time in stint 1 and 2 and in many laps in stint 3 as well.
Either way, it felt like a surprisingly good performance of Jormeli and you as well, Oompa. And T either way with 100% fuel. After so many amazing performances, he still finds new dimensions of sick records... :D
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Oompa

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Re: Formula 1 Grand Prix #2

PostThu Sep 20, 2018 3:08 pm

It's just me having a big mouth :)
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Re: Formula 1 Grand Prix #2

PostWed Mar 06, 2019 12:30 pm

Any plans for a new F1 season?
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Mike Nike

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Re: Formula 1 Grand Prix #2

PostThu Mar 07, 2019 2:11 am

I'd most likely participate, as usual, but still not organizing. I'll ask Whip in Discord...
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Whiplash

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Re: Formula 1 Grand Prix #2

PostThu Mar 07, 2019 6:09 am

I thought about to wait until that Polish F1 league is finished, so we could use those tracks + F1-Genesis and our old rules.
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